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	<title>Comments on: Radial Sankey Diagrams</title>
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	<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/</link>
	<description>Shapes, Stencils, Drawings Templates, Tutorials, Tips &#38; Developer Info for Microsoft Visio</description>
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		<title>By: Nick Presnell</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-27747</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Presnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-27747</guid>
		<description>Hello,  I see this thread is rather old, however, I would like to help build a node graph whose edges are radial sankeys.

A good visualization vehicle is a power distribution graphic for an electronics system.

Input Power is a process whose &quot;weight&quot; is proportional to the power draw at that stage.  (Power Transmitted + Power Consumed).  Subsequent stages draw from the input stage with the same transmission/consumption rules.

An algorithm that would drop process shapes as nodes in the visio canvas would be required.  A spreadsheet would drive the power parameters that determine the relative &quot;weight&quot; of the sankey edge connections.

The drawing would benefit from bending of the sankey connectors out to the star nodes.  If the connectors new the power consumer connection points, then the algorithm would need to connect them nicely to the source node so that they don&#039;t overlap.

Since the power is finite and well determined, the arclength of a source node should nicely match the collective widths of the consumer nodes normalized to avoide the full 360 degree outburst.

It seems that with a smart arrow and some help from the elegent circular pattern smart shapes that all that is lacking is a &quot;NodeXL&quot; add-in for visio, &quot;NodeVz.&quot;

Thanks,

Nick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,  I see this thread is rather old, however, I would like to help build a node graph whose edges are radial sankeys.</p>
<p>A good visualization vehicle is a power distribution graphic for an electronics system.</p>
<p>Input Power is a process whose &#8220;weight&#8221; is proportional to the power draw at that stage.  (Power Transmitted + Power Consumed).  Subsequent stages draw from the input stage with the same transmission/consumption rules.</p>
<p>An algorithm that would drop process shapes as nodes in the visio canvas would be required.  A spreadsheet would drive the power parameters that determine the relative &#8220;weight&#8221; of the sankey edge connections.</p>
<p>The drawing would benefit from bending of the sankey connectors out to the star nodes.  If the connectors new the power consumer connection points, then the algorithm would need to connect them nicely to the source node so that they don&#8217;t overlap.</p>
<p>Since the power is finite and well determined, the arclength of a source node should nicely match the collective widths of the consumer nodes normalized to avoide the full 360 degree outburst.</p>
<p>It seems that with a smart arrow and some help from the elegent circular pattern smart shapes that all that is lacking is a &#8220;NodeXL&#8221; add-in for visio, &#8220;NodeVz.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Nick</p>
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		<title>By: evan.turner</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-26847</link>
		<dc:creator>evan.turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2011 01:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-26847</guid>
		<description>I would very much make use of radial sankeys.  That is how I stumbled on this page.  I am a marine system scientist and I am making several charts for biochemical cycles in bays and oceans.  Much of the processes are cyclic with feedbacks and weights.  Research articles present this information in flow boxes but it&#039;s cumbersome and messy.  I have several I have made from the &#039;weighted line&#039; example you posted but it&#039;s tedious and time consuming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would very much make use of radial sankeys.  That is how I stumbled on this page.  I am a marine system scientist and I am making several charts for biochemical cycles in bays and oceans.  Much of the processes are cyclic with feedbacks and weights.  Research articles present this information in flow boxes but it&#8217;s cumbersome and messy.  I have several I have made from the &#8216;weighted line&#8217; example you posted but it&#8217;s tedious and time consuming.</p>
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		<title>By: Dahnyul</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22883</link>
		<dc:creator>Dahnyul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22883</guid>
		<description>For certain!  Radial diagrams would be great.  It&#039;s exactly what I want to show an itterative process that repeats until approval is achieved.  I love your radial n arrow circle thingies.  I just need one of the arrows to split so I can either continue to refine the process, or if I succeed I can graduate out of the loop.

While I may have built this manually in a past life, now that I&#039;ve discovered your cool pre-builts I now expect my every whim to have been anticipated and and incorporated into a nice little package.

I agree, this isn&#039;t a solution looking for a problem, I have that exact problem and I would LOVE a solution like this.

Dahn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For certain!  Radial diagrams would be great.  It&#8217;s exactly what I want to show an itterative process that repeats until approval is achieved.  I love your radial n arrow circle thingies.  I just need one of the arrows to split so I can either continue to refine the process, or if I succeed I can graduate out of the loop.</p>
<p>While I may have built this manually in a past life, now that I&#8217;ve discovered your cool pre-builts I now expect my every whim to have been anticipated and and incorporated into a nice little package.</p>
<p>I agree, this isn&#8217;t a solution looking for a problem, I have that exact problem and I would LOVE a solution like this.</p>
<p>Dahn</p>
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		<title>By: Sankey Diagrams &#187; Blog Archive &#187; VisioGuy invents Radial Sankey Diagrams</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22663</link>
		<dc:creator>Sankey Diagrams &#187; Blog Archive &#187; VisioGuy invents Radial Sankey Diagrams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22663</guid>
		<description>[...] the VisioGuy recently came up with Radial Sankey Diagrams. Although he didn&#8217;t seem to be sure if there is a &#8220;need for radially-oriented Sankey [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the VisioGuy recently came up with Radial Sankey Diagrams. Although he didn&#8217;t seem to be sure if there is a &#8220;need for radially-oriented Sankey [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Polsky</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22634</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Polsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22634</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do you think the circular outlay would cause any misrepresentation in the graphic?

For instance, if we have two arrows or paths of the same thickness, the outer one might look bigger because it has a longer path and therefore more area.&quot;
------------------------------------------

In a recursive process like, say, stellar nuclear reactions or the Krebs cycle, you have to think carefully about how you use area, and you might add some novelty and cleverness to the &quot;state of the art&quot; here.

Sankey diagrams use line thickness to represent quantities-- in recursive processes, the process quantities are going to be tiny compared to the available feedstock (eg, nuclear reactions in the sun will take 6 billion years to convert the sun&#039;s hydrogen supply to helium). So if you did everything to scale, you&#039;d either get a vanishingly thin line (for helium output relative to hydrogen stock)-- or you&#039;d create something misleading.

I think it would be interesting to explore the the idea of representing the central cycle without scale, but use the line thickness for the scale of the inputs and the outputs. 

It bears some thinking about, and I think the best answer will depend on the specific process one is trying to illustrate, and their scale. 

There is no obvious &quot;right answer&quot; to your question, not to me, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do you think the circular outlay would cause any misrepresentation in the graphic?</p>
<p>For instance, if we have two arrows or paths of the same thickness, the outer one might look bigger because it has a longer path and therefore more area.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>In a recursive process like, say, stellar nuclear reactions or the Krebs cycle, you have to think carefully about how you use area, and you might add some novelty and cleverness to the &#8220;state of the art&#8221; here.</p>
<p>Sankey diagrams use line thickness to represent quantities&#8211; in recursive processes, the process quantities are going to be tiny compared to the available feedstock (eg, nuclear reactions in the sun will take 6 billion years to convert the sun&#8217;s hydrogen supply to helium). So if you did everything to scale, you&#8217;d either get a vanishingly thin line (for helium output relative to hydrogen stock)&#8211; or you&#8217;d create something misleading.</p>
<p>I think it would be interesting to explore the the idea of representing the central cycle without scale, but use the line thickness for the scale of the inputs and the outputs. </p>
<p>It bears some thinking about, and I think the best answer will depend on the specific process one is trying to illustrate, and their scale. </p>
<p>There is no obvious &#8220;right answer&#8221; to your question, not to me, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Visio Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22622</link>
		<dc:creator>Visio Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22622</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the great comments, Alexander!

Do you think the circular outlay would cause any misrepresentation in the graphic? 

For instance, if we have two arrows or paths of the same thickness, the outer one might look bigger because it has a longer path and therefore more area.

I suppose outer paths could be made shorter using automated calculations.

There are so many bad graphics in the world that make misleading comparisons (like elliptical pie charts!) We don&#039;t want the guys at &lt;a href=&quot;http://junkcharts.typepad.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Junk Charts&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flowingdata.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;FlowingData&lt;/a&gt; to jump down our throats! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the great comments, Alexander!</p>
<p>Do you think the circular outlay would cause any misrepresentation in the graphic? </p>
<p>For instance, if we have two arrows or paths of the same thickness, the outer one might look bigger because it has a longer path and therefore more area.</p>
<p>I suppose outer paths could be made shorter using automated calculations.</p>
<p>There are so many bad graphics in the world that make misleading comparisons (like elliptical pie charts!) We don&#8217;t want the guys at <a  href="http://junkcharts.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">Junk Charts</a> or <a  href="http://www.flowingdata.com/" rel="nofollow">FlowingData</a> to jump down our throats! <img src='http://www.visguy.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Polsky</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22611</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Polsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22611</guid>
		<description>One more: stellar nuclear reactions

The Bethe-Weizsacker cycle (or &quot;C-N-O&quot; Cycle) for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle

This and the previous three that I mentioned above more or less demand a circular approach. Unlike Napoleon&#039;s Army in Russia, there&#039;s no &quot;beginning&quot; and &quot;end&quot; -- these cycles are essentially continuous (until they exhaust fuel or whatever), so the the Minard-style Sankey diagram is less appropriate than a circular one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more: stellar nuclear reactions</p>
<p>The Bethe-Weizsacker cycle (or &#8220;C-N-O&#8221; Cycle) for example<br />
<a  href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle</a></p>
<p>This and the previous three that I mentioned above more or less demand a circular approach. Unlike Napoleon&#8217;s Army in Russia, there&#8217;s no &#8220;beginning&#8221; and &#8220;end&#8221; &#8212; these cycles are essentially continuous (until they exhaust fuel or whatever), so the the Minard-style Sankey diagram is less appropriate than a circular one.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Polsky</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22609</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Polsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22609</guid>
		<description>What an interesting idea.

A few potential applications come to mind.

The most obvious are recursive industrial processes, where outputs are fed back into the system. Engines (turbocharged, turbofan) come to mind-- what one is trying to understand in analyzing a system like this is how performance varies with the degree of feedback. Cogeneration also roughly fits this paradigm.

In financial models, the radial paradigm would be a neat way to represent reinvestment

There are a lot of biological processes which are described with radial paradigms-- the most celebrated is probably the Krebs&#039; Cycle, but there are lots more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an interesting idea.</p>
<p>A few potential applications come to mind.</p>
<p>The most obvious are recursive industrial processes, where outputs are fed back into the system. Engines (turbocharged, turbofan) come to mind&#8211; what one is trying to understand in analyzing a system like this is how performance varies with the degree of feedback. Cogeneration also roughly fits this paradigm.</p>
<p>In financial models, the radial paradigm would be a neat way to represent reinvestment</p>
<p>There are a lot of biological processes which are described with radial paradigms&#8211; the most celebrated is probably the Krebs&#8217; Cycle, but there are lots more.</p>
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		<title>By: LW</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22448</link>
		<dc:creator>LW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 22:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22448</guid>
		<description>Looks like a solution looking for a problem!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like a solution looking for a problem!</p>
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		<title>By: Visio Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22357</link>
		<dc:creator>Visio Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 16:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22357</guid>
		<description>I like the general look of the radial layout, especially if it is reflecting a rotating or looping process.

One could also depict information based on the arc-length of an arrow (like pie charts do with sector-size). Distance from center could also have meaning.

One potential problem is that as you move out from the center, arrows of the same thickness and arc-length will have a lot more area further from the center than nearer. Such perceived &quot;bigness&quot; can be a problem when trying to accurately depict information.

- Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the general look of the radial layout, especially if it is reflecting a rotating or looping process.</p>
<p>One could also depict information based on the arc-length of an arrow (like pie charts do with sector-size). Distance from center could also have meaning.</p>
<p>One potential problem is that as you move out from the center, arrows of the same thickness and arc-length will have a lot more area further from the center than nearer. Such perceived &#8220;bigness&#8221; can be a problem when trying to accurately depict information.</p>
<p>- Chris</p>
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		<title>By: ravi apte</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22352</link>
		<dc:creator>ravi apte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 02:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22352</guid>
		<description>Not a solution looking for a problem, on the contrary this is a very useful idea. Many years ago, I used to do some work for a cigarette company that was making their own 10 cigarette packs, the kind where there is an outer sleeve and the drawer containing cigarettes slides from either end.

They could start with plan card stock and over 10 steps like printing, trimming, etc arrive at the final pack. At each stage of the process they had some wastage and they would track this wastage regularly. Similar situations exist in many industries and it is good to know where everything is going.

Also from a financial analysis perspective financial analysts want to know what is being spent on various aspects of a business. We would do this using a bar graph or a pie chart. It would be a great idea to see using circular sankeys. I think the width of the arrow is a better visualization of the amount being spent rather than a slice of a pie.

Regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a solution looking for a problem, on the contrary this is a very useful idea. Many years ago, I used to do some work for a cigarette company that was making their own 10 cigarette packs, the kind where there is an outer sleeve and the drawer containing cigarettes slides from either end.</p>
<p>They could start with plan card stock and over 10 steps like printing, trimming, etc arrive at the final pack. At each stage of the process they had some wastage and they would track this wastage regularly. Similar situations exist in many industries and it is good to know where everything is going.</p>
<p>Also from a financial analysis perspective financial analysts want to know what is being spent on various aspects of a business. We would do this using a bar graph or a pie chart. It would be a great idea to see using circular sankeys. I think the width of the arrow is a better visualization of the amount being spent rather than a slice of a pie.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
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		<title>By: HH</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22297</link>
		<dc:creator>HH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 04:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22297</guid>
		<description>About the only thing I can think of using them for is if you have a couple of different outputs from one central process and want to keep things neat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the only thing I can think of using them for is if you have a couple of different outputs from one central process and want to keep things neat.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerd</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22294</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 14:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22294</guid>
		<description>I am wondering if it might be possible that the arrows point away from the center? For a process that radiates heat or energy, this could show this in a nice way.

Tangents would be good for a process that is really rotating.

g</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am wondering if it might be possible that the arrows point away from the center? For a process that radiates heat or energy, this could show this in a nice way.</p>
<p>Tangents would be good for a process that is really rotating.</p>
<p>g</p>
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		<title>By: Einstein</title>
		<link>http://www.visguy.com/2009/05/08/radial-sankey-diagrams/comment-page-1/#comment-22293</link>
		<dc:creator>Einstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 14:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.visguy.com/?p=2773#comment-22293</guid>
		<description>Looks like a solution looking for a problem!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like a solution looking for a problem!</p>
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